Current Liberal Environment In FL

This is the place where you comment about politics and news that does not relate to the Navarre Beach Greater Area. Do NOT post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, taunting, sexually-oriented, spam, religious attack or any other material that may violate any applicable laws.
Linda
Power User
Power User
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:11 am

Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:54 am

EconProf wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:03 pm
marko wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:29 pm
The thread makes little sense given that the entire area is very conservative and they control the local governments all the way up to the state legislature and Governorship even now and have for a very long time. Its really a conservative thing to promote unlimited growth and gut environmental restrictions. It makes no sense why you are not blaming Republicans.
Repeating moveon.org verbiage!
Because no one on this forum sounds like a repeat of Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingraham, Levin, Fox News, etc. :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
marko
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 1:48 pm
Location: DFW, TX

Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:12 am

Linda wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:10 pm
Not sure if any of you live in Florida or are aware of Florida history. For years, the controlling party of Florida was Democrats. Only with the change of the evangelicals in the late 80s and early 90s did we begin to see the Republicans take seats. It also had to do with many people changing from Democrat to Republican because of social issues - abortion, etc.

So presently the liberal environment appears to mainly be South Florida and some areas near north Florida/Tallahassee area.

Does that bring this back on track?

Marko, you should continue to post. Ignore Econ.
I just post around here for amusement, I suppose. The facts are Republicans have been in charge of the area for quite awhile and things bemoaned about would clearly fall under their responsibility, but one would rather blame liberals then look at the facts. Especially funny, ironic " NB with its protection from development due to the Gulf Islands National Seashore Act", when its quite clear that Trump and his lackey Zinke would like nothing more then to sell drilling rights on all public lands to whomever is giving them money, if they could get away with it (They have, actually, if you go out west).

It is quite telling that some just go straight to insults instead of making a rational case, but then I guess they have no case to make. I know its not even worth my time to argue with some folks, but I am glad that there are people like you, Linda and couple others, that try to keep things sane.I suspect most on these boards don't bother with these political threads because of the kind of vitriol spewed by a few here.

I do recall the 1st time I moved to Texas when I left the Navy, Anne Richards was the actual democratic governor. Oddly enough, Southern Democrats back in those days, would largely be considered moderate conservatives by today's standard. I think the shift in the south from DEM to Repub. really began with Johnson and the Civil Rights act, which they never forgave. There was Nixon's southern strategy, but it didn't really get going till Reagan and the evangelicals like you mentioned.
Linda
Power User
Power User
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:11 am

Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:28 am

Yes, Marko, the change definitely came with Civil Rights, President Reagan, and then with the uprise of Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. All based on social issues of the day. It's a very interesting study.

Thanks for the comments. There is much to be discussed, rationally, in this country. If we can't do it on a forum then how do we do it as a country?
User avatar
Pete
Power User
Power User
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Navarre - Hidden Creek Estates

Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:51 am

marko wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:12 am
Southern Democrats back in those days, would largely be considered moderate conservatives by today's standard. I think the shift in the south from DEM to Repub. really began with Johnson and the Civil Rights act, which they never forgave. There was Nixon's southern strategy, but it didn't really get going till Reagan and the evangelicals like you mentioned.
Quite so. Same with Linda's mention of the previous control of FL by Dems. The Democrat party of the 1960's (JFK) had positions that would be pretty center-left Republican today - 50-years later.

The march towards socialism may be nearly inevitable as the electorate finds that they can vote themselves treasure from the public purse. The problem is there is no magic "public purse" - it has to come from others that produce goods and services. So use the power of the government to take from those with more and give to those with less. But as time goes on there are fewer and fewer to take from. If they can't keep what they earn - then why keep working just to have it taken and given to others?

Like I have. I could have retired from the Air Force and opened a dental practice - many do - but I would move into a tax bracket where of my net income, after paying all the costs of running the business, half would go to taxes (basically both halves of Soc.Sec/Medicare = 15%, then the 35% FICA = total 50%). PLUS if I spend any of my remaining 50% additional income - pay sales tax of 7% - so now down to only keeping 43%. When this sort of thing happens, why the heck work? So I don't. And so I'm NOT creating 3-5 jobs (assistants, office manager, reception, billing/bookeeping, etc.), not paying property taxes on an office, etc. When the majority are recipients of government transfers taken from a minority of producers - the system collapses. Think Venezuela and others.

Two of my favorite Atlas Shrugged Quotes:
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors; when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them, but protect them against you. You may know that your society is doomed."

"Those who had once simpered:, 'I don't want to destroy the rich, I only want to seize a little of their surplus to help the poor, just a little, they'll never miss it!'---then, later had snapped: 'The tycoons can stand being squeezed; they've amassed enough to last them for three generations'---then, later, had yelled: 'Why should the people suffer while businessmen have reserves to last a year?'---now were screaming: 'Why should we starve while some people have reserves to last a week?' What were they counting on?"
A book worth considering - but a tough read - or can consider the three part independent movies that came out a few years back - not great production (made on a shoestring - different actors playing the same charater in each of the three, etc.) but the movies do realate the basic gist of "Atals Shrugged".

And that is why I "Shrugged". No reason to "produce" anything when 57% goes to others.

Probably won't go full socialism in my remaining lifetime - but I fear for the future for my daughter and her husband and my granddaughter.
Cheers, Pete
Go Vikings!
User avatar
AngelGirl
Power User
Power User
Posts: 7779
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: The Rose Capital of the USA

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:17 am

My hubby and I share your concern, Pete! As college freshmen, my roommate and I read and discussed "Atlas Shrugged" as part of our "coffee house" discussions. I think I need to go back and re-read it now in my advancing years and maturity.
AngelGirl
Navarre Beach Life Moderator
Image

Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12 BSB
Linda
Power User
Power User
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:11 am

Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:34 am

Pete wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:51 am


And that is why I "Shrugged". No reason to "produce" anything when 57% goes to others.

Probably won't go full socialism in my remaining lifetime - but I fear for the future for my daughter and her husband and my granddaughter.

Pete it's sad you were gifted and trained and did not share your expertise and training with people because you didn't want to pay taxes. Gosh, if everyone had that outlook we'd be screwed. :lol: Trust me, I've worked along side people in their own business and see the toll but there was also greater good because of their place in the business world.

But, this could be a good example of not having to work because you have retirement. Understand that.

Do you volunteer services - mission work other countries, etc?

Please don't take this as judging...just interesting perspective to understand.
User avatar
marko
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 29, 2014 1:48 pm
Location: DFW, TX

Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:17 am

I did actually read Atlas Shrugged when I was in high school and no, it wasn't mandatory. I took a literature class as an easy elective between my harder science and math classes. Basically just pick your own books and do book reports once in awhile. I read a lot then, but most favored science fiction like Asimov, Heinlein, and Herbert. I found it rather dull and not much to speak of plot wise and way too long. I suppose I didn't even see the whole "selfishness is a virtue" thing in my youth.

I would surmise the current lurch towards more socialist attitudes is a reaction to the trend towards Oligarchy that we have had. The growing income inequality has a price. I think there is some balance to be had in the end but those in power always seek more power as history shows.
Linda
Power User
Power User
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:11 am

Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:57 am

marko wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:17 am


I would surmise the current lurch towards more socialist attitudes is a reaction to the trend towards Oligarchy that we have had. The growing income inequality has a price. I think there is some balance to be had in the end but those in power always seek more power as history shows.
I agree. History is so important and this is reason we see countries fail. The power play.

I'd also say that people are more "socially minded" not necessarily "socialist" when they are concerned with inequalities and people going without things that are so common to most of us. Our view is often very closed when it comes down to the "haves and have nots."

I would say volunteer for a few months in a program for people who fall between the cracks - families who are working but can't make enough to survive and must turn to community programs. Most times, making too much money by the charts but not enough to pay for basics, thus falling through the crack. Churches must step up, volunteers must do more than offer advice. If we only give money to shoeboxes for Christmas we miss the point. People hurt and are in need every day of the year.

Again, not socialism but "socially minded." Hands and feet of Jesus. Taking care of others in their need.
User avatar
Pete
Power User
Power User
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Navarre - Hidden Creek Estates

Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:56 am

Linda wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:34 am
But, this could be a good example of not having to work because you have retirement. Understand that.
Do you volunteer services - mission work other countries, etc?
I do do local volunteering, maintenance for the Panhandle Butterfly House, put on Mardi Gras parade, other organizations.
I cannot volunteer in doing dentistry as Florida does not have reciprocity with the licenses I did have - and after 5-years of retirement, keeping out-of-state licenses active was cost prohibitive. Also, wife is now "handicapped" to an extent, so any and all physical work at home, and careing for her, chews up a lot of time.

And BTW - it is not that I object to paying taxes - it is I object to paying more than half of any addtional earnings for work that I would do.
If taxes on my next dollar were more like 30-35% (including Soc.Sec./Medicare) then I think it would be "fair".

Side note, for that reason, and others, I'm a big fan of "The FairTax" - a national consumption tax that replaces all payroll taxes, personal and corporate income taxes, and death taxes. It is "progressive" via a "pre-bate" for the tax paid on "essentials" (e.g., the tax that would be paid on the first $25K or so spent by family of 4 - e.g. the poverty line) - so someone making twice the poverty line ($50K) would only pay half of the effective rate, etc. Don't tax production, investment, savings - we want that to happen. And, people who make money "under the table" would then be taxed, as would spending by tourists and illegal aliens. Since business are already set up to collect sales taxes - mechanism is already in place. And no more IRS threats, and no more politicians/lobbiests playing one taxpaying group against another or use the tax code to reward or punish favored or unfavored classes.
Would greatly reduce income tax non-compliance - predictive study showing $9 trillion of evaded income/payroll taxes over the next ten years.
Another, "need to read the books" on the FairTax because way too much info for a post.
Cheers, Pete
Go Vikings!
User avatar
Pete
Power User
Power User
Posts: 1896
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Navarre - Hidden Creek Estates

Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:06 am

marko wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:17 am
I did actually read Atlas Shrugged, I read a lot then, but most favored science fiction like Asimov, Heinlein, and Herbert. I found it rather dull and not much to speak of plot wise and way too long. I suppose I didn't even see the whole "selfishness is a virtue" thing in my youth.

I would surmise the current lurch towards more socialist attitudes is a reaction to the trend towards Oligarchy that we have had. The growing income inequality has a price. I think there is some balance to be had in the end but those in power always seek more power as history shows.
Totally agree - on all points. Atlas Shrugged was way too "wordy" - page after page of why someone thought the way they thought or acted the way they acted -- and the 70+pages of John Galt's radio broadcast - sheesh! If go the three-part movie route (even though low budget) can get the main points with a lot less pain.

I also read a lot of science fiction - while the Asimov, Heinlein, Clark, and -for me - to a lessor extent Herbert when in teens - prior to that read Tom Swift, Jr and Tom Corbett - Space Cadet, etc. Also, the "You Were There" fictional first person accounts of historical events.

Your precent comment, "those in power always seek morepower" is so true, and seems to progress faster in socialist-type governments as they move to totalitarianism.
Last edited by Pete on Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers, Pete
Go Vikings!
Linda
Power User
Power User
Posts: 885
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:11 am

Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:17 am

Pete wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:56 am
Linda wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:34 am
But, this could be a good example of not having to work because you have retirement. Understand that.
Do you volunteer services - mission work other countries, etc?
I do do local volunteering, maintenance for the Panhandle Butterfly House, put on Mardi Gras parade, other organizations.
I cannot volunteer in doing dentistry as Florida does not have reciprocity with the licenses I did have - and after 5-years of retirement, keeping out-of-state licenses active was cost prohibitive. Also, wife is now "handicapped" to an extent, so any and all physical work at home, and careing for her, chews up a lot of time.

And BTW - it is not that I object to paying taxes - it is I object to paying more than half of any addtional earnings for work that I would do.
If taxes on my next dollar were more like 30-35% (including Soc.Sec./Medicare) then I think it would be "fair".

Side note, for that reason, and others, I'm a big fan of "The FairTax" - a national consumption tax that replaces all payroll taxes, personal and corporate income taxes, and death taxes. It is "progressive" via a "pre-bate" for the tax paid on "essentials" (e.g., the tax that would be paid on the first $25K or so spent by family of 4 - e.g. the poverty line) - so someone making twice the poverty line ($50K) would only pay half of the effective rate, etc. Don't tax production, investment, savings - we want that to happen. And, people who make money "under the table" would then be taxed, as would spending by tourists and illegal aliens. Since business are already set up to collect sales taxes - mechanism is already in place. And no more IRS threats, and no more politicians/lobbiests playing one taxpaying group against another or use the tax code to reward or punish favored or unfavored classes.
Would greatly reduce income tax non-compliance - predictive study showing $9 trillion of evaded income/payroll taxes over the next ten years.
Another, "need to read the books" on the FairTax because way too much info for a post.
I'm glad you didn't think I was calling you out. Just curious and I understand. And the reciprocity on licensing is a big issue for many professions. Another money maker!

We need an overhaul of the tax system, the voting system, and healthcare. Always boils back down to these things. :D
Post Reply

Return to ““We the People” ~ National Politics, National News, World News and Humor”